backtocrappie

[JWhitebydam]

Maybe a medal for the shooter?

[drifter106]

Why would you give him a medal?  He took a life just as the doctor has done numerous times.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  Granted I consider myself to be pro-life but what he did totally goes against pro-life ideology.  I am quite sure there will be someone else to step up and take his place.  Its the fact that much of our society has become complacent and accept abortion as the status quo. Until that mindset is changed this dilemma will be ever present in our society.

[backtocrappie]

First and foremost, we don't know who the killer really is or their motive. I'm sorry for the guy's family, but the bible says kill by the sword die by the sword, I hate to say it but the guy kinda had it comin'.

[LBM]

In this country where one citizen has a grievances with another citizen the moral resolution is properly to be handled with our court system and the police. Any citizen initiating the use of force against another citizen is always wrong in this country.

[Gadget Man]

In this country where one citizen has a grievances with another citizen the moral resolution is properly to be handled with our court system and the police. Any citizen initiating the use of force against another citizen is always wrong in this country.

I 100% agree with LBM on this one.  Whether we like it or not, we are a society of laws and rules.  The laws are theoretically applied equally to all of us.  No single citizen has the right to circumvent the laws for their own beliefs.   

[fishingpox]

I think Operation Rescue's statement is spot on and I appreciate their effort to denounce this as a cowardly act.


Quote:
"We are shocked at this morning’s disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller’s family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ." 


That being said, there is a strange conflict I have. This doctor was performing legal late term abortions. Most people in this country believe that 3rd trimester abortions should be illegal. While I absolutely am in total agreement with the fact that this killing of the doctor is very much wrong, a small part of me is glad that this guy won't do any more late term abortions and that other doctors will be discouraged from doing the same.
I think that most pro-choice people suspect this attitude is prevalent within the pro-choice community, and they are right about that. I can't help my feelings and I think they are natural if you believe abortion is murder. It does cause an internal conflict within me because I believe so strongly that both acts are wrong. One act is a one time murder of a person guilty of many lives, the other murder stops the daily murder of innocent. Maybe that's more reality and confession than you wanted.

[J.C.Allin]

Any ladies want to weigh in on this? 

Make no mistake about it, this murder was an act of domestic terrorism, remember how much we hate religiously motivated terrorist? 

[JWhitebydam]

I don't see a bit of difference in what this guy did for a living than if he were brought
months old babies who's parents no longer wanted them, and he knocked them in the
head with a hammer...

Just because what he was doing is legal has no bearing to me on whether it's right or not,
nor does shooting him being illegal matter either.

Unfortunate the place it had to happen, but apparently it was the only chance to reach him.
Pity it wasn't done long before.

[J.C.Allin]

So you can justify killing on the basis of a religious conviction?

What if my religious conviction compels me to selectively murder district attorneys because of the way they implement laws that impinge upon my freedom? What if I worship pigs and genuinely believe that farmers are contributing to the defilement of my holy deity -- get the gun!?

Maybe the next target could be school teachers that preach that there hocus pocus evolutionary monkey talk.   

Wow, this law-of-the-jungle thing is sounding better and better isn't it!?!?! Outlawry for all and may the assassins bullet be true?

[JWhitebydam]

Who said anything about religion?  I'm not a religious person by any means, but does that mean
I can't be opposed to killing babies?  I don't see any difference in this guy and some of the Nazi (doctors???)
that perpetrated atrocities during the holocaust.  I'm pretty sure what they did was legal under the
law of the land at the time, but does that mean it was right?  Would anyone have thought it wrong if
a well-placed bullet had stopped their crimes earlier?  Laws, in the context we are looking at here, are made by
men and are inherently flawed.  Teaching evolution or whatever is not murdering innocent, defensless persons
and is not even on the same page as this.

[J.C.Allin]

The context of this crime is deeply religious, that can't be denied. It is in that context -- motivation for murder/assassination grounded in religious philosophy -- that compelled me to mention the debate over evolution. 

Yet you are right, profound religious conviction needn't be the primary factor informing opposition to partial birth abortion. I'm certainly not religious and look at late term abortion as being a gruesome and barbaric procedure; however, I don't feel passionate enough about it to pick up a gun, after all, as a man I will never be pregnant and therefore I can't understand the gravity of pregnancy.

If you believe the shooter deserves a medal or was justified, what of you? Would you have been so moved as to assassinate the doctor given the chance? If you believe Tiller was culpable in crimes SO horrendous as to rise to the level of Nazi doctors such as Josef Mengele, I would think your answer would have to be "yes". I'm honestly not trying to be inflammatory here, but wouldn't answering "no" at least imply tacit complicity in the practice you equate to genocide? It's easy to moralize so long as it remains an abstraction, but when it comes down to brass tax, would you have shot George Tiller?

Personally I wouldn't have felt so moved, nor would I make the Nazi comparison, however that doesn't mean I dismiss out of hand or condemn assassination (or dare I say it, terrorism) in furtherance of a cause that would save many lives. That said, regardless of how abhorrent I think the practice is, I believe the real enemies are not doctors who perform medical procedures that are sought out by women, it is important to remember -- NONE of the participants in Mengele's experiments (that often included keeping victims alive for weeks or months on end in states of unfathomably torturous agony) were consenting.

I strongly agree with your assertion that man-made rules governing conduct within consensual society are more often than not flawed and sometimes need to be broken, I just don't see the justification in this particular case.

[fishingpox]

The guy that murdered Tiller IMO didn't think he was justified either. He ran; they caught him some few miles down the road. So he knew he had done wrong.

I have another problem with Tiller. I wonder if he is really a Christian. I don't know anything about this man. But if he was performing 3rd trimester abortions, he knew he was killing babies; babies that can live outside the womb. Plus he should know that his Bible teaches that one is life upon conception.

I guess I'm all for abortion as long as the baby agrees to it. This is where my problem lies...outside of saving the life of the mother...a woman IMO doesn't have the right to say it is my body, hers is not being destroyed.

I don't know why most people freak out over this topic...those who believe it is a right....abortion will survive forever.

[JWhitebydam]

No, I don't take that as inflammatory.  In fact I have been asking myself that very same question.
The answer I came up with is:  I put my not being on death row or in prison for life AHEAD of doing
something like that no matter how justified I might think it.  I want to be there to see my two kids grow
up, and no I don't want to go to jail on a personal level either.  Yes, I see that as a human weakness in
myself, putting my own selfish concerns over what I believe to be right.  If indeed the fellow who did the
shooting in this incident is mentally capable of understanding what he was doing - which I would imagine
him to be - I have a certain admiration for him for doing what I'm too selfish to do.

As far as the Nazi comparison, I stand by that.  I feel that a baby,
capable of living outside the womb,  being pulled limb from limb and disposed of like trash is as bad as anything humans have done.  To sort of borrow from your reply, NONE of these aborted
babies were consulted or were consenting either.

I don't regret my opinions, or having expressed them here, however I do in looking back think I
was a bit flip, off the cuff in bringing up the subject the way I did.
It's sort of surprising to me really, I did not fully realize how strongly I felt about the subject
until this discussion. 

[LBM]

  I want to be there to see my two kids grow up, and no I don't want to go to jail on a personal level either.  Yes, I see that as a human weakness in myself, putting my own selfish concerns over what I believe to be right.

Considering the choice to stay around and care for and nurture ones children as a human weakness is an utter ridiculous thought just like thinking there is a conflict between ones own concerns and what one believes as morally right. When one is faced with choices with in their hierarchy of values it is the rational and moral choice for one to keep and or maintain the higher value. It is insanity to give up a higher value keeping the lesser. You are not alone and you have many people thinking along those lines.

This is the line of thought that BHO and liberals are now throwing at us with thought like we must make sacrifices now to get ourselves out of our current situation. Whenever someone tells you to make sacrifices they never tell you exactly what you are sacrificing and too whom those sacrifices are going. Just total nonsense to do such.

[Cane Pole]

Hitler had some good points with extermination. 

[OCB]

I got to stand with Mr. White on this. Where I come from you don't hurt a child unborn or not!

[J.C.Allin]

Where I come from shooting someone whose occupation you don't care for if frowned upon. But hey, this is contentious, I won't vilify or deify the shooter. I will however say that the whole incident simply illuminates the fact that were inhabit a culture of death and it isn't limited to abortion... abortion is small potatoes.

I'm generally turned off by most people who are anti-abortion because they fetishize the cause to the exclusion of damn near everything else, and with such zeal. As though all the evils of the world flow out of a women's birth canal in the sterile back rooms of the abortion clinics with doctors like seething undead demons devouring children and the virtuous.. Yes, unborn babies are being killed, they are being killed in numbers so high we can't even begin to imagine. But do the antiabortion folks stop to look around, do they analyze the real problem, do they say WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? WHY HAVE WE BECOME SOOO MAD! THIS WORLD IS SO GOD DAMNED CRAZY I'M GOING TO DESTROY IT! Some of them do, hey you have to choose you battles right. Of course most of them don't, they watch TV and live the boring lives in their suburban houses with all the other schleps clinging to their deluded self righteousness -- which is really all they have.

Why is the world so crazy? It's not because we don't pray enough (in fact, we might be praying too mush), it's not because we teach monkey science in school thereby disconnecting people from god, it's not because some metaphysical force floating overhead has cursed us.

It's because we are indolent, selfish, imprisoned in a culture of domination. and lead to believe that "our way of life is not negotiable". It is because we are stupid, abused and absurd, DOMESTICATED, fat and ugly with rotten teeth and vacant glassy eyes. And make no mistake about it, we are utterly rapacious in our appetite for death, even the antiabortion people crave it like vampires, we all do!

Because ours is a culture of death where life is cheapened and people are like f$%#*^@ inbred lap cats being soothed to soft sweet sleep by holographic hands stoking our well kept fur. How comfortable, how sweet. Hey, maybe on Sunday I'll hold up a protest sign, cast a stone, yell at a scared girl that was knocked up by a fatherless punk with no future prospects, I could put a bumper sticker on my car or sign my name to a lame petition that could change one law in one rotter to the core system of control and alienation. Hell, my prospects aren't that great, why not shoot an abortion doctor.... it's like stepping on an ant, soon enough a replacement will come along and the squashed and will be forgotten.

Christians have talked about George Tiller like he was a god, I think a good deal of the christian-right worshiped Tiller as an idol more than they worshiped the deity in their sacred translations of the bible -- George Tiller was an ant.

It is very sick, we are very sick, and the futures ain't looking so bright if you value this culture of death and all its bells and whistles. Cathartes shall feast!

[OCB]

Where I come from shooting someone whose occupation you don't care for if frowned upon. But hey, this is contentious, I won't vilify or deify the shooter. I will however say that the whole incident simply illuminates the fact that were inhabit a culture of death and it isn't limited to abortion... abortion is small potatoes.

I'm generally turned off by most people who are anti-abortion because they fetishize the cause to the exclusion of damn near everything else, and with such zeal. As though all the evils of the world flow out of a women's birth canal in the sterile back rooms of the abortion clinics with doctors like seething undead demons devouring children and the virtuous.. Yes, unborn babies are being killed, they are being killed in numbers so high we can't even begin to imagine. But do the antiabortion folks stop to look around, do they analyze the real problem, do they say WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? WHY HAVE WE BECOME SOOO MAD! THIS WORLD IS SO GOD DAMNED CRAZY I'M GOING TO DESTROY IT! Some of them do, hey you have to choose you battles right. Of course most of them don't, they watch TV and live the boring lives in their suburban houses with all the other schleps clinging to their deluded self righteousness -- which is really all they have.

Why is the world so crazy? It's not because we don't pray enough (in fact, we might be praying too mush), it's not because we teach monkey science in school thereby disconnecting people from god, it's not because some metaphysical force floating overhead has cursed us.

It's because we are indolent, selfish, imprisoned in a culture of domination. and lead to believe that "our way of life is not negotiable". It is because we are stupid, abused and absurd, DOMESTICATED, fat and ugly with rotten teeth and vacant glassy eyes. And make no mistake about it, we are utterly rapacious in our appetite for death, even the antiabortion people crave it like vampires, we all do!

Because ours is a culture of death where life is cheapened and people are like f$%#*^@ inbred lap cats being soothed to soft sweet sleep by holographic hands stoking our well kept fur. How comfortable, how sweet. Hey, maybe on Sunday I'll hold up a protest sign, cast a stone, yell at a scared girl that was knocked up by a fatherless punk with no future prospects, I could put a bumper sticker on my car or sign my name to a lame petition that could change one law in one rotter to the core system of control and alienation. Hell, my prospects aren't that great, why not shoot an abortion doctor.... it's like stepping on an ant, soon enough a replacement will come along and the squashed and will be forgotten.

Christians have talked about George Tiller like he was a god, I think a good deal of the christian-right worshiped Tiller as an idol more than they worshiped the deity in their sacred translations of the bible -- George Tiller was an ant.

It is very sick, we are very sick, and the futures ain't looking so bright if you value this culture of death and all its bells and whistles. Cathartes shall feast!

Obama is that you???